Unpopular Opinions

[Playa25]

Not to repeat myself again, but how can one without any reasonable doubt believe what you just said,

Am i just to accept that someone told someone who told someone, then wrote it down, then told someone who wrote some more down, and please dont give me a reply in the lines of it was questioned before and people found their answers and are now believers, not that i am not a believer, i am just questioning,

So tell me what proof those non believers found and why was this not shared with the world other than just believe what i am telling you cause thats what happened...

Morning bud. If you consistently read / study the Bible, you will soon realize that this is not the product of someone with an agenda or of human innovation. Human being do not write about themselves that they are basically fundamentally flawed and needs someone / something from outside of them, other than themselves to correct their fundamental depravity.

Dunn makes a good point that some history is sometimes very unreliable and dishonest. From a Christian perspective, believing in the inspiration of and inerrancy of Scripture, meaning that God has chosen and revealed to certain individuals (Prophets) throughout human existence, His plan and will for His creation. I think for many, the current "cultural Christianity" clouds their judgement on what true Christianity is. I can tell you, you can read the Bible for an hour and you will know that Bushiri, for example is not a Christian but a wolf in sheep's clothing, only out to deceive ignorant and carnal people who don't want God, but who in the name of God, want all their dreams and goals to be realized.

Read Genesis to Revelation and find that Christianity is about the Holy Creator (God), whose creation (humans) rebelled against Him and continues to do so throughout history (His Law, His order, etc). Their first federal head plunged them all into total depravity, which is seen in the way we behave for the most part (selfish, autonomous, evil). Just look at a baby growing up, you as the parent do not have to teach them to lie or be disobedient to you. They do that easily and all by themselves. God takes it upon Himself to save all who would come to believe again in Him and His Son and by believing, it doesn't merely mean to say; "aah okay, I believe God exists". It means to actively resolve to put all your trust for everything, for your life, in Him and to submit to His Lordship over your life, which stands to reason that now you make it your work to find out about Him from His Word and to actively resolve to obey His Word. All who believes, receives from God, His Holy Spirit to live inside them, enabling them to be obedient to and grow in holiness and the character of Jesus. Enabling them to deny ungodliness and having an attitude like their former ungodly one.

Now throughout history, God has through His servants called people, nations, cities to turn away from their rebellion to God. The result.. Many of these servants were killed. Hardly, what you see as Christianity today.

you didn't answer anything I asked, which was very simple, instead I read what I have been reading and listening to for years,

and don't get me wrong I am not discouraging anything I am simply asking for actual answer,

imagine waking up tomorrow and you find out this all this was one big lie and that everything was done deliberately for whatever the reason, just curious what would a true believer such as yourself then say

I think I mentioned already that I have traced a line of orthodoxy from this century all the way back to the 1st century. Doing that, I can clearly see where certain false movements originated and how Biblical Christianity has stood the test of time. If there was a chink in the armour, I after, my few years of studying Scripture, as well as my host of mentors who's been at it for years, critically studying the Bible, would've picked it up already. And the good thing is, we do not disconnect ourselves from historical Christianity, but we link onto it and even critically engage that. We go back all the way to reading even as far back as 2nd century documents and material about the faith. If your studies span such over such a wide period, certainly cracks would've started showing.

However, let me entertain the notion for a bit. If Christianity can be without a doubt be proofed erroneous or wrong, then in short, I need to ditch it. It's that simple. I just don't see that happening as the arguments against it has always been the same and has for 2000 odd years fell short of reaching it's objective, namely, to disproof Christianity.

so you are saying that in a matter of years you managed to study and find conclusive proof of over 2000 years worth of theory,

- what proof have you gathered other than that of what others have told you?
- and this which you have gathered against what did you verify it

[Lukie]

Not to repeat myself again, but how can one without any reasonable doubt believe what you just said,

Am i just to accept that someone told someone who told someone, then wrote it down, then told someone who wrote some more down, and please dont give me a reply in the lines of it was questioned before and people found their answers and are now believers, not that i am not a believer, i am just questioning,

So tell me what proof those non believers found and why was this not shared with the world other than just believe what i am telling you cause thats what happened...

Morning bud. If you consistently read / study the Bible, you will soon realize that this is not the product of someone with an agenda or of human innovation. Human being do not write about themselves that they are basically fundamentally flawed and needs someone / something from outside of them, other than themselves to correct their fundamental depravity.

Dunn makes a good point that some history is sometimes very unreliable and dishonest. From a Christian perspective, believing in the inspiration of and inerrancy of Scripture, meaning that God has chosen and revealed to certain individuals (Prophets) throughout human existence, His plan and will for His creation. I think for many, the current "cultural Christianity" clouds their judgement on what true Christianity is. I can tell you, you can read the Bible for an hour and you will know that Bushiri, for example is not a Christian but a wolf in sheep's clothing, only out to deceive ignorant and carnal people who don't want God, but who in the name of God, want all their dreams and goals to be realized.

Read Genesis to Revelation and find that Christianity is about the Holy Creator (God), whose creation (humans) rebelled against Him and continues to do so throughout history (His Law, His order, etc). Their first federal head plunged them all into total depravity, which is seen in the way we behave for the most part (selfish, autonomous, evil). Just look at a baby growing up, you as the parent do not have to teach them to lie or be disobedient to you. They do that easily and all by themselves. God takes it upon Himself to save all who would come to believe again in Him and His Son and by believing, it doesn't merely mean to say; "aah okay, I believe God exists". It means to actively resolve to put all your trust for everything, for your life, in Him and to submit to His Lordship over your life, which stands to reason that now you make it your work to find out about Him from His Word and to actively resolve to obey His Word. All who believes, receives from God, His Holy Spirit to live inside them, enabling them to be obedient to and grow in holiness and the character of Jesus. Enabling them to deny ungodliness and having an attitude like their former ungodly one.

Now throughout history, God has through His servants called people, nations, cities to turn away from their rebellion to God. The result.. Many of these servants were killed. Hardly, what you see as Christianity today.

you didn't answer anything I asked, which was very simple, instead I read what I have been reading and listening to for years,

and don't get me wrong I am not discouraging anything I am simply asking for actual answer,

imagine waking up tomorrow and you find out this all this was one big lie and that everything was done deliberately for whatever the reason, just curious what would a true believer such as yourself then say

I think I mentioned already that I have traced a line of orthodoxy from this century all the way back to the 1st century. Doing that, I can clearly see where certain false movements originated and how Biblical Christianity has stood the test of time. If there was a chink in the armour, I after, my few years of studying Scripture, as well as my host of mentors who's been at it for years, critically studying the Bible, would've picked it up already. And the good thing is, we do not disconnect ourselves from historical Christianity, but we link onto it and even critically engage that. We go back all the way to reading even as far back as 2nd century documents and material about the faith. If your studies span such over such a wide period, certainly cracks would've started showing.

However, let me entertain the notion for a bit. If Christianity can be without a doubt be proofed erroneous or wrong, then in short, I need to ditch it. It's that simple. I just don't see that happening as the arguments against it has always been the same and has for 2000 odd years fell short of reaching it's objective, namely, to disproof Christianity.

so you are saying that in a matter of years you managed to study and find conclusive proof of over 2000 years worth of theory,

- what proof have you gathered other than that of what others have told you?
- and this which you have gathered against what did you verify it

Hi Clayton.

I studied, not formally, but studied Church history. I was part of a "handeklop" Church where they preached about "having faith and that will sort out everything in your life." "God wants you to be healthy, prosperous, etc." I knew something was amiss and could never get the answers from my Pastor, so I set out to search Scripture for myself, leading to me shortly after that, leaving the Church because I was becoming a threat to the Pastor's vision of keeping the people in bondage and illiterate.

From there it's been a few years of intensive studies and research, first solidifying and getting my understanding of Christianity right. Then I started looking at Islam, which is one of the three monotheistic religions. Wanting to know how it fits in and all of that. After that I veered into studying atheism and it's claim of being rooted in scientific truth aka macro-evolution. So yes, it's been a busy few years.

I find it fascinating how you and TD are very antagonistic towards "what others have told you", when in practice, most of what you know, you learnt through others. If we are to find some standalone truth, which is separate and in a vacuum, only true for us and only bearing on us, imagine the chaos? No one would be able to tell anyone anything. Post-modernity's scoffing at metanarratives are unreasonable and irrational, because in itself, post-modernity is a metanarrative, intolerant of other metanarratives. More than half of what you know, were taught to you by others. Your parents, your teachers / lecturers / professors, media (newspapers, TV, movies), scientific community, etc. Now I agree, we have a responsibility to not just believe blindly what we've been told, but to scrutinize and verify what we learn. I think that is what I've been doing for the past few years, verifying the Biblical claims in and of itself and against other antithetical claims. That's where I have consulted and continue to consult with the Quran and Hadith. I look into Darwinism, Dawkins, Hitchens, Hawkins and all these guys. I study the fundamental bedrock of the different worldviews and their points of departure. And that's how I've come to settle on Christianity. Of course that's over-simplifying it, because Christianity is far more than an intellectual movement. No one, including myself, are saved and born-again by anything on their part. God does the regeneration and saving.

[Lukie]

I will repeat what I said previously.. You do not reject Jesus due to a lack of reasonableness, proof or evidence. You do that due to your stubborn unbelief, being unwilling to bend the knee to Him who created all things and who is over all things. You are upheld by His power but is not willing to deny yourself any glory, in order to glorify Him in your life and conduct. All that you are and all that you have, are His and if He were to just keep His air from entering your lungs for one moment. Just stop your heart for one moment, there will be nothing that anyone can do about it and you will face Him then and would have to give an account to Him for why you were so dead-set on opposing Him. Conscience, your life lived, God's Holy Spirit and all will testify against you that you had no excuse, for your stubborn rejection of God. I pray that God will regenerate your hearts and show His cross and His Christ as the most attractive thing to you. Attractive because you know, that cross and that Savior procured for you everlasting life with God. Everlasting life where "there shall be no more death, sorrow, crying, no more pain".

[M@ximus]

[quote="Lukie"] "Then I started looking at Islam, which is one of the three monotheistic religions. Wanting to know how it fits in and all of that. "



Out of interest how did you go about this? because I am busy with a 5 year Quranic Aabic Tafseer course, and that is just Quran no hadeeth yet, no fiqk. etc.

[psykes]

Out of interest how did you go about this? because I am busy with a 5 year Quranic Aabic Tafseer course, and that is just Quran no hadeeth yet, no fiqk. etc.

Who you doing yours through?

[M@ximus]

Out of interest how did you go about this? because I am busy with a 5 year Quranic Aabic Tafseer course, and that is just Quran no hadeeth yet, no fiqk. etc.

Who you doing yours through?

Mizan Institute part time intensive course

[Speed-Demon]

Hey bru

Hope you are well bud?

I would like to ad a different dimension to this topic.

Firstly I was born Christian. I rejected it mere days before my confirmation as well as other forms of religion.

I am agnostic. I do not believe in following a book written many moons ago and blindly following it nore am I going to believe in evolution with complete certainity. In my humble opinion neither has been conclusively proven as fact.

My question is this. You have a baby completely innocent and has absolutely no ties to anything his mind is a blank cd or hardrive.

You take said baby and put him in various circumstances.

Let's be completely ubsord and put one baby in upmarket area in a very well off families home. One in a Cape flats environment born to one of the worst gangster families. Then perhaps one in a remote island or something fending for his or herself.

Are people really their own people or are they merely a product of their circumstances and upbringing?

If you look at countries around the world and you look at the amount of religious people it is purely based on the culture and upbringing of people in those places.

If you are born into a Christian family you will most likely follow in those ways. The same way a Muslim will follow the Quraan ,a Jewish person will follow judism, an atheist will follow atheism, etc.

Who decides that said baby is born in said place and it is right or wrong? Are they merely a product of circumstance?

You do not need religion to tell you what is right or wrong.

However what happens to all the people that just blindly followed what they were taught are all of them wrong? Will one lot be okay and the rest sentenced to hell?

What about the baby born in the wild and left to fend to himself never had access to any of these sacred texts is he/she dammed to hell as well? Perhaps let's throw in the one murdered at a couple of months old. Take it the price is placed upon the parents?

Makes absolutely no sense to me but I am happy to hear something which makes actual sense.

Not meaning to come off as attacking things. I will happily read and learn but I think it is absolute bs.

I guise for people not taking action and being better. There is heaven and hell so at the end of the day things will always be okay. There is somebody which will make things right and it's an excuse that people use to get by and do nothing.

I will repeat what I said previously.. You do not reject Jesus due to a lack of reasonableness, proof or evidence. You do that due to your stubborn unbelief, being unwilling to bend the knee to Him who created all things and who is over all things. You are upheld by His power but is not willing to deny yourself any glory, in order to glorify Him in your life and conduct. All that you are and all that you have, are His and if He were to just keep His air from entering your lungs for one moment. Just stop your heart for one moment, there will be nothing that anyone can do about it and you will face Him then and would have to give an account to Him for why you were so dead-set on opposing Him. Conscience, your life lived, God's Holy Spirit and all will testify against you that you had no excuse, for your stubborn rejection of God. I pray that God will regenerate your hearts and show His cross and His Christ as the most attractive thing to you. Attractive because you know, that cross and that Savior procured for you everlasting life with God. Everlasting life where "there shall be no more death, sorrow, crying, no more pain".

[Speed-Demon]

Hey bru

Hope you are well bud?

I would like to ad a different dimension to this topic.

Firstly I was born Christian. I rejected it mere days before my confirmation as well as other forms of religion.

I am agnostic. I do not believe in following a book written many moons ago and blindly following it nore am I going to believe in evolution with complete certainity. In my humble opinion neither has been conclusively proven as fact.

My question is this. You have a baby completely innocent and has absolutely no ties to anything his mind is a blank cd or hardrive.

You take said baby and put him in various circumstances.

Let's be completely ubsord and put one baby in upmarket area in a very well off families home. One in a Cape flats environment born to one of the worst gangster families. Then perhaps one in a remote island or something fending for his or herself.

Are people really their own people or are they merely a product of their circumstances and upbringing?

If you look at countries around the world and you look at the amount of religious people it is purely based on the culture and upbringing of people in those places.

If you are born into a Christian family you will most likely follow in those ways. The same way a Muslim will follow the Quraan ,a Jewish person will follow judism, an atheist will follow atheism, etc.

Who decides that said baby is born in said place and it is right or wrong? Are they merely a product of circumstance?

You do not need religion to tell you what is right or wrong.

However what happens to all the people that just blindly followed what they were taught are all of them wrong? Will one lot be okay and the rest sentenced to hell?

What about the baby born in the wild and left to fend to himself never had access to any of these sacred texts is he/she dammed to hell as well? Perhaps let's throw in the one murdered at a couple of months old. Take it the price is placed upon the parents?

Makes absolutely no sense to me but I am happy to hear something which makes actual sense.

Not meaning to come off as attacking things. I will happily read and learn but I think it is absolute bs.

I guise for people not taking action and being better. There is heaven and hell so at the end of the day things will always be okay. There is somebody which will make things right and it's an excuse that people use to get by and do nothing.

I will repeat what I said previously.. You do not reject Jesus due to a lack of reasonableness, proof or evidence. You do that due to your stubborn unbelief, being unwilling to bend the knee to Him who created all things and who is over all things. You are upheld by His power but is not willing to deny yourself any glory, in order to glorify Him in your life and conduct. All that you are and all that you have, are His and if He were to just keep His air from entering your lungs for one moment. Just stop your heart for one moment, there will be nothing that anyone can do about it and you will face Him then and would have to give an account to Him for why you were so dead-set on opposing Him. Conscience, your life lived, God's Holy Spirit and all will testify against you that you had no excuse, for your stubborn rejection of God. I pray that God will regenerate your hearts and show His cross and His Christ as the most attractive thing to you. Attractive because you know, that cross and that Savior procured for you everlasting life with God. Everlasting life where "there shall be no more death, sorrow, crying, no more pain".

#Unpopular opinions

[State187]

You know im the one who put you up there, name in the sky does it ever get lonely

[Lukie]

Hey bru

Hope you are well bud?

I would like to ad a different dimension to this topic.

Firstly I was born Christian. I rejected it mere days before my confirmation as well as other forms of religion.

I am agnostic. I do not believe in following a book written many moons ago and blindly following it nore am I going to believe in evolution with complete certainity. In my humble opinion neither has been conclusively proven as fact.

Let me first respond to the part I highlighted in blue. I wanna say this what all due respect and I'll elaborate on it below, that you cannot be truly born-again and fall totally away from the faith, because that would mean to be unborn-again. I however understand your statement, that you at one stage made a profession of faith and you turned aside from it. The reason could be anything and I certainly won't bash you over it, because I can see that you are thinking through these matters and you seem to be really seeking the truth, judging from your post. I was at a crossroad a few years myself, when I was awaken to the fact that the Church I belonged to, paid lip service to the Word of God, but actually uses it as a footnote, to push their own erroneous theology of "Your Best Life Now". It was tough after that and because I didn't know much about the faith I was in at the time, only knowing that I must be born-again and a few other things, I didn't understand everything fully, neither did I know much about Christian history and worldview, etc. I wanted nothing to do with Churches again, but by God's grace after much studying and praying and questioning, I came to understand things much better.

My question is this. You have a baby completely innocent and has absolutely no ties to anything his mind is a blank cd or hardrive.

You take said baby and put him in various circumstances.

Let's be completely ubsord and put one baby in upmarket area in a very well off families home. One in a Cape flats environment born to one of the worst gangster families. Then perhaps one in a remote island or something fending for his or herself.

Are people really their own people or are they merely a product of their circumstances and upbringing?

If you look at countries around the world and you look at the amount of religious people it is purely based on the culture and upbringing of people in those places.

If you are born into a Christian family you will most likely follow in those ways. The same way a Muslim will follow the Quraan ,a Jewish person will follow judism, an atheist will follow atheism, etc.

Who decides that said baby is born in said place and it is right or wrong? Are they merely a product of circumstance?

As for the part above, the difference would be that from a Christian Worldview perspective, all human beings born, inherit the rebellious and sinful nature of their first parents Adam and Eve. That being said, it doesn't manifest itself equally in all, for example and as you have mentioned, one might be born in a more moral setting and family, whereas the other is born into a broken home and society where he is more susceptible to become a gangster and drug addict. I can tell you though, that circumstances do play a role but cannot be used as an excuse. I lost my father when I was 7, most of my memories about him, was seeing him intoxicated. Then I was left all alone with a mother and baby sister. I met with many wrong friends along the way, didn't grow up in a Christian home, so I was the perfect target to become all of the wrong things. Then you get my cousins, who grew up in a stricter home with both parents and the parents being religious and all that. They turned out, like how I was supposed to. I know many people who reared their children away from "bad" things and it didn't stop those kids from going the wrong way. People have a sinful and rebellious nature and inclination and unless restrained and regenerated by their maker, they will remain that way and it will manifest. Let me say again, look at young children, you don't have to teach them to disobey you or to lie, that naturally. So yes, circumstances play a role in manifesting the fallen nature of humans more fully, but then again, circumstances are the way they are because of that very fallen nature of creation, being polluted by us humans who decides we do things our way and engage with nature our way, even though we didn't make it. Now the more moral child and the outright rude and out of control, gangster child are both guilty before God, because even though the one is moral, he doesn't have a regard for his Creator or His Creator's Word. He does it to feel good about himself and not to glorify His God.

You do not need religion to tell you what is right or wrong.

However what happens to all the people that just blindly followed what they were taught are all of them wrong? Will one lot be okay and the rest sentenced to hell?

What about the baby born in the wild and left to fend to himself never had access to any of these sacred texts is he/she dammed to hell as well? Perhaps let's throw in the one murdered at a couple of months old. Take it the price is placed upon the parents?

You do not need religion yes bud, because God made you with a conscience that acts as a restraining mechanism and as a short of alarm, which alerts you to it when you are doing wrong. Conscience can be corrupted and seared with time though and a person can become desensitized, but deep down people still know when they are wrong. The other thing is, humanity has gone astray at will and by no fault of the Creator / God. So He is not obligated to save all of humanity. As for there being people who do not have access to sacred texts. We have missionaries, who devote their lives to reaching said people and we can rest assured that all who has been elected unto eternal life with God, will be reached by Him through the preaching of His Gospel. As for babies of a few months old being murdered / dying, there is an age of accountability or a becoming accountable where a child becomes liable for their sin, the moment that sin starts to be practiced by the kid. You do not need to know the entire Bible, to be saved, you need to know the central message of the Bible and the great invitation to come to God, to turn away from rebellious and sinful ways and to trust in Him, from there in your studying of His Word, He sanctifies you, but all the while you are justified already, by just coming to Him and trusting in Him for all things.

In the end, God will not only be glorified in the salvation of people, but also in the damnation of people, because all His attributes will be fully displayed. His love, grace, mercy, compassion, etc. As well as His justice, righteousness, holiness, etc.

Makes absolutely no sense to me but I am happy to hear something which makes actual sense.

Not meaning to come off as attacking things. I will happily read and learn but I think it is absolute bs.

I guise for people not taking action and being better. There is heaven and hell so at the end of the day things will always be okay. There is somebody which will make things right and it's an excuse that people use to get by and do nothing.

As for pacifist Christians believing that God will make all things new and they need not to do anything, the less I say, the better. That's not too Christian, to have such a stance. Yes God will make all things new, but we are here now and we have an obligation to tell people about Him, how to be right with Him, how to glorify Him. We need to love others and care for them. We need to show the character of Christ, because we are Christ-ians. He never did anyone any wrong, He would rather suffer loss and pain at the hands of others. He fed others, while in His humanity, Himself not having much. He spent and gave Himself to others, till the end of His time here on earth ultimately giving His life, in death for them, becoming a curse for those who were accursed, so that they might become blessed in Him, blessed with eternal life and relationship with God. We Christians are to exhibit that character and we can only do that through the indwelling and enabling of His Holy Spirit inside of us.

I will repeat what I said previously.. You do not reject Jesus due to a lack of reasonableness, proof or evidence. You do that due to your stubborn unbelief, being unwilling to bend the knee to Him who created all things and who is over all things. You are upheld by His power but is not willing to deny yourself any glory, in order to glorify Him in your life and conduct. All that you are and all that you have, are His and if He were to just keep His air from entering your lungs for one moment. Just stop your heart for one moment, there will be nothing that anyone can do about it and you will face Him then and would have to give an account to Him for why you were so dead-set on opposing Him. Conscience, your life lived, God's Holy Spirit and all will testify against you that you had no excuse, for your stubborn rejection of God. I pray that God will regenerate your hearts and show His cross and His Christ as the most attractive thing to you. Attractive because you know, that cross and that Savior procured for you everlasting life with God. Everlasting life where "there shall be no more death, sorrow, crying, no more pain".

Hi bud

I'm all good thank you. Yourself? Thank you for respectfully adding and engaging to the topic at hand. I will seek to respond as best as I can by responding inline to your post.
Let me first respond to the part I highlighted in blue. I wanna say this what all due respect and I'll elaborate on it below, that you cannot be truly born-again and fall totally away from the faith, because that would mean to be unborn-again. I however understand your statement, that you at one stage made a profession of faith and you turned aside from it. The reason could be anything and I certainly won't bash you over it, because I can see that you are thinking through these matters and you seem to be really seeking the truth, judging from your post. I was at a crossroad a few years myself, when I was awaken to the fact that the Church I belonged to, paid lip service to the Word of God, but actually uses it as a footnote, to push their own erroneous theology of "Your Best Life Now". It was tough after that and because I didn't know much about the faith I was in at the time, only knowing that I must be born-again and a few other things, I didn't understand everything fully, neither did I know much about Christian history and worldview, etc. I wanted nothing to do with Churches again, but by God's grace after much studying and praying and questioning, I came to understand things much better.

[Lukie]

Ignore the part in blue, as I responded inline to make it better to read.

[Lukie]

"Then I started looking at Islam, which is one of the three monotheistic religions. Wanting to know how it fits in and all of that. "



Out of interest how did you go about this? because I am busy with a 5 year Quranic Aabic Tafseer course, and that is just Quran no hadeeth yet, no fiqk. etc.

Hi bud, so what I did was to do a systematic study of Christianity and after concluding that, I started looking systematically at Islam as well and also looked at it's place in history, the historical setting and narratives (hadith) about Muhammed and so forth. So basically, looking at the fundamental teachings of the Bible, comparing it to that of Islam, looking at the life of Jesus, the central figure of Christianity and the life of Muhammed, the central figure of Islam. Checking the compatibility, etc. Times in history, etc. But yes it's an ongoing exercise and I've learned a lot, however I continue to learn more every day.

Watched a few debated between Muslim scholars like Shabir Ally, Jalal Abualrub, etc vs James White.

[Dougell]

[psykes]

I like how people brush everyone with the same brush as blind believers lol . @speed-demon ...you are a product of random selection and your position in this world is purely circumstantial' you are on the right path bru keep it up

[Sumo]

Forum is rukking on race tales bru